PHL 105Y October 17, 2005

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PHL 105YOctober 17, 2005

• For Wednesday, read to the end of chapter eight
  of the Republic.
• Everyone is welcome to the first Philosophy Club
  meeting today 5-7pm in North Building 262.
  Bring a couple of interesting sentences (either
  ones youve read, or ones youve written).
• For Fridays tutorial, answer one of the
  following two questions (write about a page it
  will be collected)
• What, according to Socrates, is the difference
  between being interested in seeing beautiful
  things and being interested in beauty itself?
  (see 475d-477a)
• What is the point of the analogy of the ship (at
  488b-489a)?

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The three parts of the mind (or soul)

• The rational part (which guides us when we act on
  the basis of what we think is good)
• The passionate part (which guides us when we act
  from emotion e.g. pride)
• The desirous part (which guides us when we act
  from appetite e.g. thirst)

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Morality and health

• Morality is a matter of the inner harmony of
  ones soul (not defined in terms of outward acts,
  although outward acts could be signs of a moral
  or immoral soul)
• Morality is compared to health life is supposed
  to be not worth living if the natural
  constitution of the soul is ruined (is it?)

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Morality and health

• How effective is the analogy?
• you create health by making the components of
  the body control and be controlled as nature
  intended, and you create disease by subverting
  this natural order. ()
• you create morality by making the components of
  the mind control and be controlled as nature
  intended, and immorality by subverting this
  natural order. (444d)
• What would Thrasymachus say here?

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Chapter 7 some radical social proposals

• Any time a philosopher proposes some radical
  changes to how people live, raise their children,
  etc., as you read through, it is good to keep a
  steady eye on the question
• What is all of this for?

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Whats the goal of allthese strange proposals?

• Try to figure out whether Socrates is interested
  in ensuring
• -that everyone will be as happy as possible, or
• --that some people will be extremely happy
  (perhaps at the expense of others), or
• --that all (some?) people will have good
  (although not necessarily happy) lives (and what
  counts as good?)
• -that the city will make the best possible use of
  everyones abilities.. (and how will that be
  measured? By GDP? By the United Nations Standard
  of Living Index?)
• -or is it something else again? (What?)

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Is it all for this?

• Q Is anything better for a community than for
  it to engender women and men who are
  exceptionally good?
• A No. (456e)
• So the community has to produce at least some
  (or many? or as many as possible?) exceptionally
  good men and women. But note that even if this
  is the highest good for a community, there may be
  other, lesser goods that the community can come
  up with. So keep an eye out for other goals that
  the community will also be aiming it.

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Whats wrong with the family?

• Why wont children be raised by their parents?
• Why wont people know who their biological
  siblings are?
• Why wont there be husbands and wives (in the
  conventional sense) in the ideal community?

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What about women?

• How does Socrates deal with the objection that
  male and female are opposites? (see 454cd)

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What about women?

• How does Socrates deal with the objection that
  male and female are opposites? (see 454cd)
• We had in mind only that type of difference or
  similarity which is relevant to identity of
  occupation. (454cd)

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What about women?

• Are these claims consistent?
• 1. The one gender male is far superior than
  the other in just about every sphere. (455d)
  spheres when women excel sewing, pancake
  making, and boiling vegetables
• 2. Innate qualities have been distributed
  equally between the two sexes, and women can join
  in every occupation just as much as men, although
  they are the weaker sex in all respects. (455de)

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What about women?

• What degree of equality do they get, and why?
• What do you learn about Platos way of thinking
  from his discussion of physical training for
  women? (457a)

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Breeding humans

• Is this part of the Republic even consistent with
  the rest of the text? (look especially at the
  myth of the metals)
• What attributes does Plato have his community
  breed for? Rationality? Strength? Productivity?

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Slavery

• A fact of life in ancient Athens
• Slaves were not distinguished by race any person
  could end up as a slave if he or she was on the
  losing side of a regional conflict (and there is
  some speculation that Plato himself may have
  lived for a while as a slave)
• Plato argues that there should be limits on
  slavery (what limits?), but he doesnt argue for
  the abolition of the practice (why not?)

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Human nature?

• How would human beings be different if they were
  raised in Platos ideal community?
• Do you think that human nature presents any fixed
  obstacles to the establishment of such a
  community? Why or why not?

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Chapter 8 Philosopher Kings

• Whats the minimum change one would need to make
  to bring about Platos ideal community?