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A Tribute to Terry Brown

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Title: A Tribute to Terry Brown


1
A Tribute to Terry Brown
  • 1939-2005

2
A Preview
  • Michael Chandler

3
  • As all of you know, Terry Brown, a remarkable
    Piagetian scholar, a former JPS President, and a
    good friend of many Society members, was
    tragically killed in an auto accident in July of
    2005. Not withstanding other subsequent losses
    from within its ranks, the intervening months
    have given the Society sufficient time to mount
    this brief tribute to Terry. Our aim has been to
    avoid, as much as possible, sentimentalities and
    fond anecdotes. Nor do we intend to especially
    eulogise Terrys life, to line out his many
    accomplishments, or to dwell on why he will be
    sorely missed. Instead, and because he ordinarily
    said just about everything better than the rest
    of us, we have chosen to let him speak for
    himself. We mean to do this by showcasing a few
    brief out-takes from his varied written and other
    public works. Following an opening remark by our
    President, Nancy Budwig, a half a dozen of us
    will simply read out to you something of
    Terryssomething that we hope provides a brief
    glimpse into one or another of the many facets of
    his complex character. While doing this we will,
    as Terry would have insisted, serve some wine.
    So, please start drinking, and in the tradition
    of a good Irish wake, a good fist-fight or two
    would be especially welcome. Here is a short
    preview of the agenda we mean to follow

4
Agenda
  • 1.) First, Nancy Budwig has agreed to say a few
    introductory words intended to set the tone of
    the next 30 or 40 minutes
  • 2.) Second, I will let you in on the fact that,
    in the months before his death, Terry was working
    on a Rhubarb Cookbook. After showing two
    recipes from this work in progress
  • 3.) Eric Amsel will comment on Terry as Teacher
    and Mentor
  • 4.) Chris Lalonde will share some of Terrys
    thoughts about Telenomy and Reductionism
  • 5.) Mark Bickhard will read out excerpts meant to
    capture what Terry imagined he was doing in
    translating so many of Piaget and Inhelders
    writings
  • 6.) Michel Ferrari will report on Terry on
    Consciousness
  • 7.) Cynthia Lightfoot will report on Terry as
    Choreographer and
  • 8.) I will end with some of Terrys Last Words
    Goodbye.

5
Opening RemarksNancy Budwig
6
Terry as COOKBOOK AUTHOR Michael Chandler
7
  • No one who knew Terry seriously doubted that he
    cared more about good food and wine than your
    average gourmet, or failed to appreciate that he
    always stood ready to share such things not just
    the knowledge, but the actual food and wine with
    his friends and colleagues. What most do not
    know is that, shortly before his death, Terry was
    working on a cookbook. It was, as it turns out,
    primarily a book about rhubarba plant that
    grows in such abundance that it threatens to
    squeeze-out most of the native plant species of
    western Illinois. Terrys way of fighting back
    was to lure everyone into eating as much rhubarb
    as possible. Here are some of the recipes from
    his unfinished cookbook

8
Rhubarb and Strawberry Pie
  • A delicious tart and sweet combi-nation. Nothing
    tastes better with vanilla ice cream. Fresh or
    frozen rhubarb may be used.
  • RECIPE YIELD 1 pie
  • SERVINGS 8
  • INGREDIENTS
  • 1 cup white sugar
  • 1/2 cup all-purpose flour
  • 1 lb. fresh rhubarb, chopped
  • 2 pints fresh strawberries
  • 1 recipe pastry for a 9 inch double crust pie
  • 2 tablespoons butter
  • 1 egg yolk
  • 2 tablespoons white sugar
  • DIRECTIONS
  • Preheat oven to 400 degrees F (200 degrees C).
  • 2. In a large bowl, mix flour and sugar. Add
    strawberries and chopped rhubarb. Toss with sugar
    and flour and let stand for 30 minutes.
  • 3. Pour filling into pie crust. Dot top and
    bottom crust with water.
  • 4. Apply yolk to top of pie, using a pastry
    brush. Sprinkle with sugar. Cut small holes in
    top to let steam escape.
  • 5. Bake at 400 degrees F (200 degrees C) for 35
    to 40 minutes, or until bubbly and brown. Cool on
    rack.

9
  • Not all of the recipes that he was assembling for
    this book were necessarily about rhubarb. They
    do, however, all contain ample quantities of his
    wit and good humour. Here is one such seafood
    curry recipe

10
Shrimp or Fish Curry (Jhinga Kari)
  • PRELIMINARIES Take two Zantac (generic is
    acceptable).
  • MARINATE SHRIMP OR FISH
  • Put 1-1_ lbs seafood to marinate in 2 tsp. salt
    and 3 tsp. cider or white wine vinegar. (If it is
    fish, Indian preference would be for kingfish,
    something we dont have in Ame-rica. Halibut is a
    fine substitute. You may also use monkfish,
    tilapia, red snapper, or catfish. Goldfish have
    too many bones. Silverfish are too small and are
    not fish any-way.) Let stand with occasional
    stirring for 20 minutes. Strain off marinade and
    reserve. Dry seafood on paper towels.
  • HAVE READY
  • Bowl 1 1tbsp. each of fresh, finely chopped,
    ginger and garlic.
  • Bowl 2 _ cup dried or 18 fresh unchopped curry
    leaves.
  • BOWL 3 _cup finely chopped onion.
  • BOWL 4 1 tsp. each of tumeric, ground cumin
    seed, ground fenu-greek seed _tsp each of
    ground hot red pepper, ground black pepper.
  • BOWL 5 _cup finely chopped fresh coriander (aka
    cilantro, dhania, Chinese parsley).
  • 1 CAN (usually 13_oz) unsweetened coconut milk.
  • _CUP clam juice or fish stock (or _ of a Knorrs
    fish bouillon cube if you are desperate).

11
Shrimp or Fish Curry (Jhinga Kari)
  • COOKING
  • Cover bottom of a large skillet with peanut oil,
    heat until a drop of water flicked into it
    sizzles. Put in seafood, spread it out evenly,
    and cook on each side for one minute.
  • 2. Remove seafood to side dish and reduce heat to
    low-medium.
  • 3. Put in ginger and garlic. Stir-fry for 1
    minute.
  • 4. Add curry leaves. Stir-fry for 30 seconds.
  • 5. Add onions and stir-fry until onions become
    translucent.
  • 6. Add spices and stir-fry for another minute.
  • 7. Add shrimp marinade, coconut milk, and clam
    juice.
  • 8. Simmer until the desired thickness of the
    curry is achieved (it should be fairly thick).
  • 9. Adjust lemon juice and seasonings.
  • 10. Return seafood to pan, coat with curry
    liquids, sprinkle on chopped coriander and
    simmer, turning frequently, for 2-3 minutes
    depending on the size of the seafood pieces.
    Remove from heat.
  • EATING Serve over boiled rice with various
    chutneys and Indian pickles. (To be authentically
    Indian, you must eat it with the fingers of your
    right hand. Try not to get sauce above the wrist.
    Keep your left hand in your lap.
  • AFTERMATH Call Terry and assure him that you are
    still alive.

12
Terry as TEACHER MENTOR Eric Amsel
13
  • Although seldom a classroom teacher, Terry was
    one of those rare persons from whom one regularly
    learned things. Although he did, for many years,
    serve as director of psychiatric training at the
    University of Chicago Hospital, and he helped to
    supervise the doctoral studies of a number of PhD
    candidates, it was through his conference
    presentations and various publications that his
    skill as a teacher can be most easily put on
    display. It was his special gift to hit upon
    colourful ways of making unfamiliar (and often
    impossibly dense) matters seem familiar and
    clear.
  • Let me illustrate this by reading to you two
    short passages from his chapter Reductionism and
    the Circle of the Sciences, that appeared as the
    introduction to his and Les Smiths 2003 edited
    JPS volume entitled Reductionism and the
    Development of Knowledge.
  • The first of these examples occurs as part of
    Terrys extended critique of P. S. Churchlands
    notion of inter-theoretic reduction, a suspect
    possibility that corresponds to what Piaget
    called inter-level or interdisciplinary
    reduction. The argument against such attempted
    interdisciplinary reduction, according to Terry
    is that

14
  • ...the phenomena that define the various fields
    of science are specific to them, and, although
    consistent with, are not contained within the
    laws and theories of the disciplines on either
    side. For example, suppose that Galileo had
    dropped cats or children from the leaning tower
    in his studies of gravitation. The fact that
    such objects are biological when singled out for
    study does not make Galileos experiment a
    biological experiment, nor does it reduce living
    phenomena to the law of gravitation. Only if
    Galileo had studied those properties that set
    cats and children apart from inorganic physical
    objects could one make biological claims (Brown
    Smith, 2003, p. 22).
  • Here is a second example from that same chapter

15
  • To provide a concrete illustration of what is
    wrong with Churchlands (1986) reasoning,
    consider the story of David and Goliath (I Samuel
    1751) The cause of Goliaths untimely death may
    have been an injury to his brain, but that only
    explains how he died it says nothing about why
    he died. A forceful blow to his head caused a
    cerebral hemorrage, increased intracranial
    pressure, uncal herniation, and, following
    physical law, interrupted the function of his
    respiratory center. Again, that is Newtons how
    Goliath died it is not Keplers why he died.
    Why goliath died does not admit of causal
    explanation. Rather, it is necessary to say how
    the causal events involved were set in motion.
    Was Goliath hit on the head by a falling rock?
    Did a horse kick him? Or did David sling a rock
    with deadly force? Without the morphogenetic
    story being known, the case of the dead
    Philistine goes unsolved. It is nothing more
    than a headline or the first sentence of a
    coroners report Local giant found dead of head
    wound. Only when it is discovered that Goliath
    died as a result of Davids ethnically and
    politically motivated hatred (not to mention his
    ambition) that Goliaths death is understood.
    Repeating myself for emphasis Biological
    analysis, however detailed, of just how the rock
    from Davids slingshot fatally disrupted
    Goliaths neurons is essentially irrelevant to
    the explanation of Goliaths death as murder and,
    as I shall eventually argue despite Churchlands
    claim to the contrary, no physiological
    explanation of Davids motivation is possible in
    principle (Brown Smith, 2003, p. 12).

16
Terry on TELEMONY REDUCTIONISMChris Lalonde
17
  • In a 1997 volume entitled La Epistemología
    Genética y la Ciencia Contemporánea (edited by
    Rolando Garcia) Terry published a paper under the
    borrowed title IS TELEONOMY A CATEGORY OF
    UNDERSTANDING? In this account he trades on
    earlier writing by Piaget and by Guy Cellérier,
    all in an effort to wrestle with issues of
    reductionism and so-called life-matter
    problemsproblems that have plagued psychology,
    if not since Plato, at least since Descartes.
    This is not, of course, the place to attempt to
    reprise or critique this densely written chapter.
    Here is Terrys own short synopsis of the paper
  • The gist is that you cannot explain intentional
    conduct by attributing logicomathematical
    structure you must do so by attributing
    teleonomic structure. Is that so hard to
    understand?
  • If you have not read the paper, it is actually a
    bit hard to understand, primarily because the
    term teleonomic structure is not in most
    peoples working dictionary.

18
  • Terry goes on to try to make all of this more
    clear by urging us to
  • pay close attention to the irreducible
    disparity between the causal and the conscious.
    The kernel idea here he suggests turns on the
    distinction between what Cellérier called the
    epistemic versus the pragmatic
    transformationa distinction what works to drive
    a wedge between procedures and structures
    (Inhelder Piaget, 1979).
  • The importance of the structure-procedure
    distinction he insists, is that it makes clear
    that Piagets earlier theory of structural
    attribution must be amended if it is to apply to
    teleonomically regulated objects, including
    people. This follows, according to Piaget,
    because consciousness cannot be reduced to
    cause.

19
  • Among the implications that flow from these
    distinctions is, according to Terry, that
  • it is first of all impossible to explain the
    abstract functional design of teleonomic
    systemswhether organisms, psyches, or
    servomechanisms developed by the psychein terms
    of physics. In particular, neurophysiological
    data, however interesting in their own right,
    cannot even in principleexplain mental data
    because the relation between neurophysiological
    mechanisms and mental mechanisms is multivocal in
    both directions.
  • The trouble, Terry goes on to say with many
    if not all of the disputes having to do with mind
    and brain and with reductionism and
    interactionism arise because of confusion among
    levels of organization. The key to avoiding both
    reductionistic and mentalistic explanations
    resides, therefore, in carefully observing
    phenomenal levels.

20
  • At the inorganic level, this claim appears
    noncontroversial. Whatever the causal effects
    involved, at that level they have come together
    by chance. Attribution of anything other than an
    ateleonomic, logico-mathematical structure would
    be inappropriate.
  • For lack of space, let me, in moving to the
    psychological level, by-pass the levels of
    instinctual and habitual reactions and jump
    directly to the level of sensorimotor intention.
    ...Attribution of anything other than very
    specific principles of psychological construction
    to mental phenomena is inappropriate. .....The
    explanation of intelligent conduct proceeds,
    therefore, by establishing psychological laws,
    coordinating those laws in accordance with some
    model of intentional teleonomy, and attributing
    that model to the subject or subjects exhibiting
    such conduct. If that is not done, there is no
    understanding. If it is done but, at the same
    time, levels are confused, false explanations
    resulta problem that I illustrate with the
    following example.

21
  • Consider two scenarios. Both begin with a young
    woman asking her companion why he has opened
    another bottle of wine. In the first scenario,
    the companion confuses explanatory levels and
    responds Well, you see, there were electrical
    discharges occasioned by the release of dopamine,
    norepinephrine, and serotonin into the
    intersynaptic spaces of my limbic system. This
    resulted in transmission of neuroelectrical
    impusles to my thalamus and produced a cascade of
    activity in my motor cortex and down my spinal
    cord. The next thing I knew I was reaching for
    the corkscrew. In the second scenario, the
    companion does not confuse explanatory levels and
    answers simply, Because the night is young and
    you are beautiful.

22
Terry as TRANSLATOR/INTERPRETERMark Bickhard
23
Three books on which Terry was the lead
translator
  • 1. ) His and C. Kaegis 1981 translation of
    Intelligence and Affectivity
  • 2.) His and Kishore Thampys 1985 translation of
    Piagets volume Equilibration des structures
    cognitives, published as The Equilibration of
    Cognitive Structures by The University of Chicago
    Press and
  • 3.) A manuscript now awaiting publication that
    translates Bärbel Inhelder and Guy Cellériers
    edited volume Le cheminement des découvertes de
    l'enfant. The English title of this volume is to
    be Pathway to Children's Discoveries.

24
  • For more than 25 years (working alone or in
    partnership with colleagues) Terry was involved
    in various projects that included the translation
    of some of Piaget and Inhelders most important
    writings. He and others associated with the
    Piaget Societys Translation Advisory Committee
    did much to make the always dense and sometimes
    impenetrable writing of the Genevian group more
    accessible to an English speaking audience.
  • Les Smith, who worked closely with Terry on the
    Translation Advisory Committee, forwarded several
    examples of how this was done. Here is a single
    example that turns on the difference between a
    storm or orage in French and an orange, A
    1975 translation of Piagets Equilibration des
    structures cognitives renders a particular
    passage as follows

25
  • a child of three, for example, will ask if a
    new orange separated from a preceding one by a
    long interval, is the same orange
  • Les points out that the original French text
    actually used the word orage or storm. As
    Terry and his co-translator Kishor Thampy noted,
    Piagets original intention was to raise a
    question about how children demarcate where one
    storm ends, and another begins, a real identity
    problem even for adults in Geneva. A good
    question and, as Les remarks, a good
    translation.
  • Of course, the real work of translation rarely
    turns on anything a simple as getting single
    words right. This is best seen in three books on
    which Terry was the lead translator. These
    include

26
  • a.) His and C. Kaegis 1981 translation of
    Intelligence and Affectivityan account of
    Piaget's Sorbonne lectures (originally published
    in French in 1954), that showed new possibilities
    for understanding the interaction between
    psychological and sociological factors in human
    development
  • b.) His and Kishore Thampys 1985 translation of
    Piagets dense volume The Equilibration of
    Cognitive Structures by The University of Chicago
    Press and
  • c.) A manuscript now awaiting publication that
    translates Bärbel Inhelder and Guy Cellériers
    edited volume Pathway to Children's Discoveries.

27
  • In addition to these whole volumes Terry also
    contributed to the important 1995 volume edited
    by Les Smith entitled Jean Piaget's Sociological
    Studies by translating Problems of the Social
    Psychology of Childhood, and with M. Gribetz,
    Piagets Logical Operations and Social Life.
  • In all of these efforts Terry was quick to
    understand that, not withstanding the small
    recompense usually accorded to translators, there
    was much to recommend doing what he did. Again,
    he says this best in his own words in the
    beginning pages of his and Kishore Thampys
    translation of The Equilibration of Cognitive
    Structures, where he reports
  • The publisher has asked us to explain why we
    undertook a new translation. We hesitate to do
    so because we do not wish to criticize a
    colleague. What we will say is that the
    translators task is a thankless one. Four things
    may happen. The original work may be good and the
    translation also. In that case the reader

28
  • admires the author, and the translator is
    forgotten. The other three possibilities cannot
    be told apart. When a translated book is bad, it
    may be that the original was good and the
    translation bad or that the original was bad and
    the translation good or that both were bad. This
    makes it necessary for the reader to hedge his
    bets. Since writing books, even bad ones, is
    admired and translating them is considered a
    lower calling, he invariably blames the
    translator. There is no winning.
  • The one compliment a translator does receive
    takes the following form. When his work has come
    to someones attention, and after he has made his
    apologies for not producing an original piece, it
    is observed that he must know the language from
    which he has translated very well. That is what
    most people think is essential to translation.
    Publishers also often seem to operate on that
    assumption. It is quite erroneous.
  • The qualities of a good translator are three. In
    order of

29
  • decreasing importance, a translator must write
    well in his own language he must know the
    subject and he must know the language from which
    he translates. If the first condition is not
    met, he will produce a bad book no matter what he
    understands. Bad writing obfuscates thinking,
    good or bad.
  • Piaget is a hard case. He was a great thinker
    but an inconsiderate if not downright awful
    writer. There are several explanations.
    Cellérier once told one of us that he thought
    Piagets thinking was intuitive. If that means
    incompletely conceptualized and therefore not
    totally available to consciousness, then it might
    explain his writing. Papert believes that it was
    because Piaget had a multiple scientific
    personality. We do not know the reason. We have
    only felt the pain his prose inflicts. His was a
    complex, allusive style, often leaving more
    unsaid or hinted at than fully stated. It is not
    always easy to fill the gaps. One has seldom
    read every writer he alludes to.
  • In translating this work, we have tried to
    circumvent

30
  • Piagets style without altering his meaning. We
    have broken up his endless sentences and made the
    antecedents of his pronouns clear. We have also
    paid careful attention to his allusions and to
    technical terms. And we have tried to translate
    each sentence in the context of everything of his
    we have ever read. If our efforts have been
    successful, the reader will admire Piaget, or at
    least be able or judge him fairly.

31
Terry on CONSIOUSNESS Michel Ferrari
32
  • Having struggled through much of his professional
    life to successfully drive a conceptual wedge
    between teleomatic accounts of brains and
    teleonomic accounts of minds, Terry, like many
    before him, was forced to grapple with the role
    of consciousness. Although he didnt believe
    that he had solved this problem, he did think
    that, in his ongoing romance with the songs of
    Edith Piaf, he had found a source model for
    eventually coming to such an understanding. Here
    is a short summary of those views
  • Do we really understand the function of
    consciousness? On my view, we do not, although I
    lean toward the opinion of another great
    epistemologist of our century, Edith Piaf. A
    duet, A quoi ça sert lamour, which she recorded
    around the same time that Piaget was writing
    Psychological Thought begins with a skeptical
    young man singing

33
  • A quoi ça sert lamour?
  • On raconte toujours
  • Les histoires insensées.
  • À quoi ça sert aimer?
  • This may be crudely translated as What is love
    for? People are always telling silly stories.
    What good is it to love? Piaf responds with an
    epistemological theory that I consider a special
    instance of Piagets musings about the function
    of consciousness
  • Lamour ne sexplique pas.
  • Cest une chose comme ça
  • Qui vient, on ne sait doù
  • Et vous prend dun coup.

34
  • Love cant be explained. Thats the sort of
    thing it is. It comes from who knows where and
    suddenly grabs hold of you. The young man
    continues
  • Moi, jai entendu dire
  • Que lamour fait souffrir,
  • Que lamour fair pleurer.
  • À quoi ça sert aimer?
  • Ive heard it said that loves make you suffer,
    that love makes you cry. What good is it to
    love? At each reprise, Piaf reassures her young
    friend that love does have a function and that
    that function is to lead to other states of
    consciousness, to other feelings. It is, on
    Piafs view, these feelings that give meaning to
    ones life. They are sufficient in themselves.
    At last the young man understands

35
  • En somme, si jai compris,
  • Sans lamour dans la vie
  • Sans ces joies, ces chagrins,
  • On a veçu pour rien.
  • In sum, if I have understood, without love in
    your life, without loves joys, its afflictions,
    youve lived for nothing. To my mind, that is,
    to date, about all we know of why consciousness
    evolved.

36
Terry as CHOREOGRAPHER Cynthia Lightfoot
37
  • In his salad days and somehow in between working
    in the lab of a Nobel laurite in theoretically
    physics and getting a degree in psychiatry, Terry
    spent a period of time as a professional ballet
    dancer. Dancing careers are typically short, but
    love of dance is not, and Terry involved himself
    in ballet throughout his life. During his
    frequent visits to Switzerland during the 1990s
    he associated himself with Le Ballet du Grand
    Théâtre de Genève and, working collaboratively
    with its principal choreographer Giorgio Mancini,
    participated in shaping several dance pieces that
    toured internationally. A performance of one of
    these works, titled Words No Longer, was filmed
    while the company was in Japan in 2000. With
    special thanks to choreographer Giorgio Mancini,
    and to Saba Ayman-Nolley and her husband for
    technical assistance, I would like to show you
    the last 6 minutes of Words No Longer
    interpreted by dancers from Le Ballet du Grand
    Théâtre de Genève.

38
Last Words GoodbyeMichael Chandler
39
  • When improvident death snatches away those close
    to our hearts, an important part of what is also
    lost is the chance to have said our last
    goodbyes. Ordinarily we can do little more with
    such regrets than wonder what might or should
    have been said.
  • Although it was a decade ago, and in the closing
    moments of his Presidency of JPS, Terry had, what
    must now pass as an opportunity to say goodbye to
    his friends and colleagues, at least those in the
    Society. As he always did, he would have (had
    fate given him the opportunity) found a different
    and still more elegant way of saying it all
    again. Still, the tone and quality of his
    earlier remarks are both vintage-Terry, and, no
    doubt, his sentiments until the end. What
    follows, then, is a lightly edited (i.e.,
    shorter) version of his earlier goodbyescirca
    1995remarks that appeared earlier in the Genetic
    Epistemologist

40
  • It is difficult to know just what to say. My
    reflections about the years as president, however
    powerful for me, seem trite in our age of
    hard-sell rhetoric where anything is said and
    feeling comes cheap. It has been an honor to
    serve as president of the Society, to be
    surrounded by colleagues of such class, to be
    part of an organization where, as Katherine
    Nelson recently said to me, intellectual things
    happen.
  • When I began translating Piaget in the late
    seventies, I had no idea that this office would
    come to me. I only wanted my students to read a
    few things that were unavailable in English. At
    the time, I even shied away from JPS, imagining
    that it must be some sort of cult. It was not
    until 1987 that my despair over psychiatry's
    conception of mind in terms of brain and
    thorazine drove me to my first JPS symposium. I
    was willing to try anything except
    antidepressants.

41
  • As president, I have presided over many changes,
    some begun before I arrived, some encouraged by
    me. Their overall thrust has been to open the
    society up to a wider audience. In no case has
    their purpose been to produce converts to Piaget.
    If there is any doctrine that the society wishes
    to promote, it is something like "We are
    interested in people who think about what
    knowledge is and where it comes from. If you have
    similar interests, come and join us." (That, of
    course, is completely Piagetian.)
  • Concretely, the society has begun having meetings
    at different sites, and it has increased efforts
    to enrol both national and international members.
    The board is reorganizing in ways that will allow
    it to operate in much more wide-open fashion, and
    it is seeking ways to involve members more fully
    in the workings of the society. We have a fine
    symposium coming up, and we will be represented
    in at least three centennial celebrations of
    Piaget's birth, most notably our own, but not in
    a retrospective spirit. We want to represent the
    cambium layer of Piagetian thought, not the
    supporting wood.

42
  • But enough, I am no good at good-byes. No matter
    how I cut it, I end up with a list. This old
    horse is willingly put out to pasture. But he
    thanks you for the privilege of being your
    colleague and your president.
  • I give this heavy weight from off my head . .
    .The pride of kingly sway from out my heart.
    Etc, etc.
  • See you in ,
  • Terry Brown

43
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