Title: An Experiential Introduction to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy ACT: Where Strangers Meet
1An Experiential Introduction to Acceptance and
Commitment Therapy (ACT) Where Strangers Meet
- Dr. Yvonne Barnes-Holmes
- Department of Psychology
- National University of Ireland, Maynooth
2Human SufferingThe Truth About Why ACT Can Help
Us
- High lifetime incidence of major DSM disorders,
many persistent, pervasive in our lives and
obstructive - High treatment demand from other persons even
more confused because they are suffering and
cant work it out - High rates of divorce, sexual concerns, abuse,
violence, prejudice, which in many cases occur in
lives that are NOT otherwise happy - General lack of life direction and focused
activity, which seems to render life meaningless
or bland - These are not just momentary concerns they are
psychological arthritis it wont kill us but it
will make our lives miserable - -- so much so that some days we wish we were dead
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3Suicide
- Unknown in non-humans but universal in human
society - About 10 incidence of attempts
- About 20 serious struggles including a plan
- About 20 serious struggles without a plan
- About 50 not associated with a DSM disorder
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4- This means me and you,
- our families,
- our children,
- our friends,
- our neighbours,
- and our colleagues
- (no-one escapes)
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5So, why have we looked for this?
- There is something different about being human
- Because we can feel pain all around us, even in
the things that are supposed to be reinforcers - It is easy to slip into pain and discomfort
- It is hard to be happy
- And its all just so difficult to work out
consistently
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6Why are you doing this?What does that mean for
who you are?
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7Obstacles to Openness
- It is hard to admit we suffer, so we create
obstacles we can hide behind to convince
ourselves and others that this is not so - Try these ones for size and see what others fit
Uncertainty Comparisons Worry Regret Shame
Sadness Anxiety Pride Inconsistency Embarrassment
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8The Sad Truth
- So, the sad truth is that you are not special
psychological suffering and pain are the
normality, as is the ability to create polished
obstructions to sharing it - Yes, you may think you are, you may even really,
really want to believe that you are, but people
all over the world have the same problems as you,
therapists hear them every day, so do spouses and
partners, so do children and parents and children
of these parents and their children sorry
excuses for lame parenting and humanity passed
down from generation to generation - Every client thinks that she or he is special, so
does every therapist
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9Now There Are Two Problems
- If you accept that you are not special, then why
the obstacles to sharing -- no-one will be
surprised because they will have heard it all
before - But you may have invested heavily in being
perfect, sane or normal - And all for nothing it was all a farse because
thats not who you are - So, now you have two problems you will forever
struggle to be happy because it is so easy to
fall into unhappiness and you have wasted chunks
of your life (perhaps without ever realising)
already trying to be someone that doesnt exist - Not even someone that you are not, but someone
that never existed -- like Barbie -- a nine-foot
giant with a size 0 wasteline
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10Big Vs. Small The John Wayne Image
-
- We often think that we are being very convincing
to others when we are trying to hide who we
really are. Metaphorically everyone walks
around looking like John Wayne. Among all the
clients ever seen or heard about, no-one ever
encountered a real John Wayne. When the door to
the therapy room closes, we find that the big
strong-looking people are just as scared as the
rest of us. Will I be liked? Will I fit in?
Will I measure up? Even John Wayne, of course,
wasnt John Wayne. There are a million John
Waynes all thinking they are the only one Oh,
to be special.
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11So, Who Are You?
- So, you have been pretending for some time to be
someone you are not - Someone else has been walking around in your
shoes, pretending to be you - Like little girls in their mums high heels
except youre the parent - But you have liked it that way, you prefer it in
fact, because that person is MORE, BETTER, and
DIFFERENT than you in so many ways - And they let you hide behind them, so no-one will
see how small you really are
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12Big Vs. Small
- Whenever we try to be BIG, there is a little
person inside with no room to move - So, inside each of us, there is little X and BIG
X - If only the BIG person could get out of the way,
then the little person could be big - BIG people swallow little people up, so much so
that they dont even know they exist anymore - Maybe youve been swallowed up
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13Whos Been Minding You?
- So, now weve smelled the rat the game is up
- But how did we get swallowed up along the way?
- Why were we trying so hard?
- Well your mind is what makes BIG BIG and it
played you well, so much so that it has been
telling YOU who YOU are
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14 Rich Minds
- So your mind has been working you well, always
telling you it has a solution to your problems - But the solution is always the same -- you just
have to be BIG, one way or another, and then the
problem will go away because you will believe the
story that you really are BIG and because BIG
people dont have problems, then you wont have
problems either, or at least no-one will know - And if they get suspicious, your mind will be
right on the ball and will think of a small
problem to throw in their direction, just enough
to make them think youre human and have real
feelings - And really -- nothing is handed over
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15 Rich Minds
- So, your mind is like a rich investment broker,
who tells you how to invest your money. Now he
is getting richer and richer, so you believe that
he is worth investing in. So, when he rings you
on the phone you are easily convinced because he
is getting richer and richer. But its with your
money, and you are not getting richer, you may
even be losing money. Its not that the broker
cant make money he obviously can, its just
that he cant make you money and whats worse is
that he can only make money for himself if he
uses yours. - Like a lamb invited to a dinner party and
relishing the thought of enjoying a great feast,
but totally unaware that he is on the menu so
close and yet so far. - Isnt a solution always just around the corner!
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16Minding Your Shoes
- Thats what minds do best
- They use your energy and time, but no matter how
active they are, it doesnt mean that they are
solving your problems - But, just to keep you spending, they create a
nice story for you to hold onto and the only
thing that you are getting out of this is
something to hide behind - And now youre hiding behind your own mind and
your mind has been walking in your shoes its
been driving you around like a taxi driver
speaking a foreign language for the most part
you are helpless
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17The Struggle
- But this is not all news to you, you have known
for some time that no matter how much you
invested in your mind, you were not getting
solutions - You didnt really believe the story your mind
gave you, so you struggled with it (with thoughts
like Im not really that bad and secret ways of
checking if other people confirm or disconfirm
whether your self-evaluations are true) but
still you knew it wasnt really working and you
felt like a bit of a fake - So, although the story was useful to keep you
from the full pain of your problems and
anxieties, you were back to two problems - The one you started off with and the struggle
with your mind about it
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18The Struggle
- So frustration is always part of the struggle
- We can almost watch ourselves go back and forth
with our minds in private internal debates, but
yet we are helpless - Soon and without you ever really noticing, the
struggle can become more painful than the thing
you started struggling about in the first place - Buts its the only thing you know how to do --
so you struggle -- struggle -- struggle
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19The Struggle
- But, the struggle is so tempting and feels nice
and comfortable, like youve grown into it - Its like your favourite old shoes or music from
the time you were a teenager - You know you should be moving forward and youre
not sure if you even like it anymore and you know
that this would not be the way to move forward,
but its yours and you own it - But why so helpless?
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20Creative Hopelessness Man in the Hole
- The situation you are in seems a bit like this.
Imagine that you're placed in a field, wearing a
blindfold, and you're given a little bag of
tools. You're told that your job is to run
around this field, blindfolded. That is how you
are supposed to live life. And so you do what
you are told. Now unbeknownst to you, in this
field there are a number of widely-spaced fairly
deep holes. You don't know that at first --
you're naive. So you start running around and
sooner or later you fall into this large hole.
You feel around and sure enough you can't climb
out, and there are no escape routes you can find.
Probably what you would do in such a predicament
is to take the bag of tools you were given and
see what is in there maybe there is something
you can use to get out of the hole. Now suppose
there is a tool in that bag, but it's a shovel.
It's seemingly all you've got. So you dutifully
start digging, but pretty soon you notice you're
not out of the hole. So you try digging faster
and faster. But you're still in the hole. So
you try big shovelfuls, or little ones, or
throwing the dirt far away or not. But still
you're in the hole. All this effort and all this
work, and oddly enough the hole has just got
bigger and bigger and bigger. Hasn't it? So you
come in to see me, and you're thinking maybe she
has a really huge shovel -- a gold-plated steam
shovel." Well I don't. And even if I did I
wouldn't use it because digging is not a way out
of the hole--digging is what makes holes. So
maybe the whole agenda is hopeless--you can't dig
your way out you can only dig in. Im sorry.
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21The Struggle
- So, we know why youve been digging, because
thats what we are all trained to do, and once
you start, the mind takes over - And digging pays off at one level because the
struggle keeps the direct pain of the problem in
the background and provides a welcome distraction
from the demands of delivering on a whole life - Wed all be amazing if it wasnt for X
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22Creative Hopelessness
- Now, you have a couple of choices here
- The most obvious one is that you can keep digging
and convincing yourself that it might eventually
work - This is the default option the program is set
at this dial so that every time you are unwilling
to make a choice or commit, then digging will be
the outcome - And maybe on certain problems thats where you
are right now maybe you just havent struggled
enough with that problem - Maybe you could even make room for some more
struggle go on, just squeeze a little more in
and when you have had enough, then you will know
that you have had enough, because you will not be
willing to take any more
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23Creative Hopelessness
- And notice that as you get very near to the
maximum amount of struggle you are willing to
take, part of what might keep you digging even
then is that you have done so much of it already - So, now your mind tells you you are a fool
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24Creative Hopelessness
- And notice the perspective you have on yourself
at this point - So, your mind tells you you are a fool and worse
- And as you buy into that thought, notice that you
are heaping more dirt down on top of yourself - Its like a client coming in and you saying you
fool how did you let that happen, didnt you see
what was going on, that your problems werent
going away? - Go on add a few more insults and evaluations
theres always room for more dig, dig, dig
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25Creative Hopelessness
- But, notice that if this was your client, or if
it was your son or your partner you wouldnt
dream of doing that to them - And yet, you do it to yourself time and time
again - Why, so cruel?
- Perhaps you are the victim and not the
perpetrator?
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26Creative Hopelessness Tug of War with a Monster
- This situation is like being in a tug-of-war with
a monster. It's big, ugly and very strong. In
between you and the monster is a pit, and as far
as you can tell, it is bottomless. If you lose
this tug-of-war, you will fall into this pit and
will be destroyed. So you pull and pull, but the
harder you pull, it seems the harder the monster
pulls, and it appears that you are edging closer
and closer to the pit. The hardest thing to see
is that your job here is not to win the
tug-of-war. - Your job is to drop the rope.
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27Dropping the Rope
- So, I say to you okay just drop the rope and
we will listen and share, knowing only that you
are stuck with your struggle and that left to
your own devices you will just keep digging - I dont know what it feels like to dig in your
field or to pull against your monster, I only
know my own and that others have them just the
same - But, I cannot just throw you another line knowing
that you will just keep pulling or digging,
because your mind cannot be trusted - So, no matter what I give you, you will do the
same, because my experience and your experience
tell us that this is what you have mostly done so
far, thats why you still find yourself in this
situation - So, I say, let me make a small space on my chair,
just to help you carry what you are carrying
because right now there is no way of putting it
down
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28Moving Forward
- There will be no moving forward from hopelessness
when the mind still has escape hatches it can use
to get you out of facing the pain and the
struggle directly - And if it shows you even the smallest EXIT sign,
you will probably take it, because if you had
been really able or willing to face what you are
facing with dignity, then you would have done so
before - These escape hatches will keep letting you behave
badly they will let you wriggle out of
commitments with lines like I never really loved
her anyway or I knew it would never work - And if you never really committed, then even
failing is not real failure because you never
committed anyway thats why your mind never
loses
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29Moving Forward
- But just notice one thing
- Think about whats on the table what is really
happening in the negotiations - Is it really about whether you love the person or
whether you want something to work - They may not be on the table at all maybe its
about being right and clever and in charge - And if that has been the case and you see it,
then only you has been made wrong by this try
putting that on the table too
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30Moving Forward
- Okay, so you are stuck, you cant move forward
because you cant trust yourself, because youll
start struggling - And you cant move anyway because you never
really did anything like this before, so you
dont really know what you are doing - You feel a bit of a fool, because you are such a
novice - Thats a good thought Test 1 -- will you
struggle with it or will you just notice that it
showed up at a time of uncertainty - Choose now (1) struggle and play with the
thought, fighting back that it is not true or (2)
notice that it showed up when it did and that it
tried to tell you something about who you are
(also notice that it tried to tell you that the
thought was BIG and you are small)
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31Moving Forward
- Being willing and making a commitment to noticing
the struggle through which your unwillingness
survived are amongst the hardest things you will
do in ACT - Any actions thereafter will be guided by what you
find after noticing the struggle, not by what
your mind tells you, so you have full
respons-ablity over your actions, any failings
will be your own entirely and you will know that,
and the success will be yours too - Sometimes you will judge wrong and the struggle
will get you anyway, and there will always be
someone you can find to make a small space in
their seat, if you only ask - Alternatively, if you begin to struggle with the
struggle, then you can be guaranteed of the
outcome there will be no magic to what will
happen thereafter
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32Moving Forward
- So, no matter where or when this workshop ends or
how much it affects you there will come a time
when you will have to bring your futures forward - It may be a Monday morning or a Wednesday
afternoon, but it will come and you will have at
least one choice to make - And at this time you might ask yourself what have
you been being about - Have you been being about struggle, of one kind
or another?
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33Discriminating Self as Context from Self as
Content
- Over-attachment with psychological content to the
point of fusion or integration with the self, is
almost unavoidable and not letting this happen in
a problematic fashion requires the development of
a very stable sense of who you are (warts and
all) - Sadly, it is easier to integrate with negative
content, because the demands upon behaviour
thereafter are less if you think you are weak
then only weak behaviour will be necessary to be
consistent with this and so you cant fail - But content is often polarised as we try to pull
ourselves away from negative content by using
positive content so our struggle looks like it
is between being positive and negative - However, no matter how much positive content you
try to cling to, the outcome of the struggle will
always be the same more struggle
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34Polarising The Box with the Stuff in it
- Suppose we had this box, some nice, some horrible
its the content of your life. All of your
programming. Theres some useful stuff in here,
but theres also some rotten smelly stuff. Now
lets say that there are some things in here that
are really yucky blow your nose into a tissue
and put it in the box. What would come up? I
have to get rid of this. As we continue, the box
is getting pretty full and notice that a lot of
these items have to do with the first yucky one.
Notice that the first piece isnt becoming less
importantits becoming more important, because
your programming doesnt work by subtraction. So
the more you try to subtract an item, the more
you add new items that have to do with the old
one. Problem is, since the box is you, at some
level, the box is in contact with all the bad
stuff youve stuffed in the corners. Now if the
stuff thats in the corners is really bad, its
really important that it cant be seen. But that
means that anything related to it cant be seen
either, so it too has to go into the corner. So
you have to avoid situations where light might be
cast into the corners. Gradually your life is
getting more and more squeezed and the bad is
leaking evermore over the good.
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35Thoughts and Words Look Real
- Thoughts and words often function literally, this
is simply the way that language works and it is
useful for the real world - For example, the rule dont run into moving
traffic or you will die allows you to imagine in
a real sense what will happen if you do, so that
you can avoid it if it didnt have some literal
functions then you would have no great reason to
avoid it -
- But many thoughts, particularly those that relate
to ourselves, lead us to believe that they are
actually saying something important about who we
are and who we should be these are always the
ones that shout the loudest
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36Thoughts and Words Look Real
- So, the literality exercises clearly demonstrate
how thoughts can affect our behaviour directly - For example, maybe you had the sense that you
just couldnt write the words - Now we know that your hand or its capabilities
didnt suddenly become paralysed, so your mind
was in the driving seat of the hand - And so, its a good lesson, be afraid of those
thoughts, be very afraid, because left to your
own devices, you could let them take over the
whole ship and your life would be like the hand
on a compass with your mind spinning you around
from one direction to the next
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37Self as Context vs. Content The Chessboard
- Its as if there is a chessboard that goes out
infinitely in all directions. Its covered with
different coloured pieces, black pieces and white
pieces. They work together in teams, like in
chess, the white pieces fight against the black
pieces. You can think of your thoughts, feelings
and beliefs as these pieces. For example, bad
feelings (like anxiety, depression, resentment)
hang out with bad thoughts and bad memories.
Same thing with the good ones. So it seems
that the way the game is played is that we select
which side we want to win. We put the good
pieces (like thoughts that are self-confident,
feelings of being in control etc.) on one side,
and the bad pieces on the other. Then we get up
on the back of the white queen and ride to
battle, fighting to win the war against anxiety,
depression, thoughts about whatever. Its a war
game. But theres a logical problem here, and
that is that from this posture, huge portions of
yourself are your own enemy. In other words, if
you need to be in this war, there is something
wrong with you.
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38Self as Context vs. Content The Chessboard
- And since it appears that youre on the same
level as these pieces, they can be as big or even
bigger than you are, even though these pieces are
in you. So somehow, even though it is not
logical, the more you fight the bigger they get.
If it is true that if you are not willing to
have it, youve got it, then as you fight them,
they get more central to your life, more
habitual, more dominating, and more linked to
every area of your life. The logical idea is
that you will knock enough of them off the board
so that you will eventually dominate themexcept
your experience tells you that the exact opposite
happens. Apparently the black pieces cannot be
deliberately knocked off the board. So the
battle goes on. You feel hopeless, you have a
sense that you cant win, and you cant stop
fighting. If youre on the back of that white
horse, fighting is the only choice you have
because the black pieces seem life-threatening.
Yet living in a war zone is a miserable way to
live.
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39Discriminating Self as Context from Self as
Content
- Much of what we see as bad content is
evaluation - When this concerns the self it can become
particularly painful and particularly sticky - Here there are high levels of fusion between the
content and the self and non-literal exercises
are necessary to defuse the perspective on these
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40Self as Context vs. ContentThe Signpost
- Say you were looking at a mountain and there is a
signpost pointing to it that reads, Bad
Mountain. If youre over at the signpost,
looking at the mountain from the point of view of
bad mountain that appears to be what the
mountain actually is. However, if you stand back
and look at both the mountain and the signpost,
you can see that they are two different things.
One is the mountain, and one is the evaluation of
it. The thing that says bad is not the
mountain, but a sign pointing to it. If you see
this, its not necessary to tear all the signs
down. The problem is if you take the signs to be
the things that they point to.
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41Self as Context vs. ContentHouse and Furniture
- Its as if you are a house, filled with
furniture. The furniture is not, and can never
be the house. Furniture is the content of the
house and the house merely holds or contains it.
It provides the context in which the furniture
can be furniture. Whether the furniture is
thought to be good or bad, says nothing about the
value of the house. You are the house but not
the furniture. Your thoughts and feelings are
the furniture. Just as the furniture is not the
house, your thoughts and feelings are not you.
They are simply experiences you have that are
like pieces of furniture.
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42Discriminating Self as Context from Self as
Content
- Out of the place from which there is a
distinction between you and that with which you
struggle (including struggle itself), are you
willing to feel that, think that, experience
that, as it is, not as it says it is, and do
whatever works for you in that situation?
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43Experiential Willingness
- It can be very difficult to decipher what is and
is not experiential willingness - Willingness is not a feeling or a belief, it is
ultimately an action - When all is said and done, ACT is fundamentally
about courage and taking a leap of faith when all
you know is what you dont know
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44Experiential Willingness
- To show you how you have already started, notice
that willingness was coming here and being honest - And even when you are being willing, there is
plenty of room for everything else that might
show up - Welcome it in -- good and bad and show off your
willingness to it - Its simply a matter of what you choose to be
about
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45Experiential Willingness The Two Scales
- Imagine there are two scales, like the balance
and volume knobs on a stereo. One is right out
here in front of us and it is called, for example
sadness. It can go from 0 to 10. In the
position youre in, what brought you in here was
this This sadness is too high. Its way up
here and I want it down here and I want you, the
therapist, to help me do that please. In other
words, you have been trying to pull the pointer
down on this scale. But now theres also another
scale. Its been hidden. It is hard to see.
This other scale can also go from 0 to 10. What
we have been doing is gradually preparing the way
so that we can see the other scale. Weve been
bringing it around to look at it. It is really
the more important of the two, because it is the
one that makes the difference, and it is the only
one that you can control. This second scale is
called Willingness. It refers to how open you
are to experiencing your own experience when you
experience itwithout trying to manipulate it,
avoid it, escape it, change it, and so on.
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46Experiential Willingness The Two Scales
- When sadness is up here at 10, and youre
trying hard to control it, to make it go down,
make it go away, then youre unwilling to feel
it. In other words, the willingness scale at
that time is down at 0. But this is a terrible
combination. Its like a wrench. When you have
a wrench set one way, no matter how hard you turn
the handle on the wrench it can only tighten the
bolt. Its like that. When sadness is high, and
willingness is low, the wrench is tight and
sadness cant go down. Thats because if you are
really, really unwilling to have sadness, then
sadness is something to be sad about. Its as if
when sadness is high, and willingness drops down,
the sadness kind of locks into place. You turn
the wrench and no matter what you do with that
tool, it drives it in tighter. So what we need
to do in this therapy is shift our focus from the
sadness scale to the willingness scale. Youve
been trying to control Mr. Sadness for a long
time, and it just doesnt work. Instead of doing
that, we will turn our attention to the
willingness scale. Unlike the sadness scale,
which you cant move around at will, the
willingness scale is something you can set
anywhere.
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47Experiential Willingness The Two Scales
- Its not a reaction, a thought, or a
feelingits a choice. Youve had it set low.
You came in here with it set low-in fact coming
in here in the first place may initially have
been a reflection of its low setting. What we
need to do is to get it set at high. If you do
this, if you set willingness high, I can
guarantee you what will happen to sadness. Ill
tell you exactly what will happen and you can
hold me to this as a solemn promise. If you stop
trying to control sadness, your sadness will be
low or it will be high. I promise you. Swear.
Hold me to it. And when it is low, it will be
low, until its not low and then it will be high.
And when it is high, it will be high until it is
not high anymore. Then it will be low again. Im
not teasing you. There just arent good words
for what it is like to have the willingness scale
at highthese strange words are as close as I can
get. I can say one thing for sure, though, and
your experience says the same thing if you want
to know for sure where the sadness scale will be,
then there is something you can do.
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48Experiential Willingness The Two Scales
- Just set willingness very low and sooner or
later when sadness starts up, the wrench will
lock in and you will have plenty of sadness. It
will be very predictable. All in the name of
getting it low. If you move the willingness
scale up, then sadness is free to move.
Sometimes it will be low, and sometimes it will
be high, and in both cases, you will keep out of
a useless and traumatic struggle that can only
lead in one direction.
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49Experiential Willingness
- Much of the key willingness work in ACT is done
in vivo - Clients wriggle easily when in discomfort and it
can take a lot for a therapist to remain open to
this and willing to tackle it - But, if you fail to do so, clients will easily
detect this and you will reduce your capacity for
willingness on both sides on future occasions - At this point, you must be completely open to
your own discomfort and stay one step ahead
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50Experiential Willingness
- You can check the level of willingness you have
for what you value by thinking about the
following questions - Is this what you dreamed of?
- Is this what you really expected?
- Are you somehow now worth less than before?
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51Experiential Willingness
- But willingness is just a set of small steps
- Commitments give the steps momentum and direction
- You can start being willing at any time
- And the more consistently you do it with
commitments, the more you will be surrounded with
what you value
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52Choosing and Valuing a Direction The Gardening
Metaphor
- Imagine that you selected a spot to plant a
garden. You worked the soil, planted the seeds
and waited for them to sprout. Meanwhile, you
started noticing the spot across the road also
looked like a good spot maybe even a better
spot. So you pulled up your vegetables and went
across the street and planted another garden
there. Then you noticed another spot that looked
even better. Values are like a spot where you
plant a garden. You can grow some things very
quickly, but others require time and dedication.
The question is Do you want to live on lettuce,
or do you want to live on something more
substantial potatoes etc.? You cant find out
how things work in gardens when you have to pull
up stakes again and again. Of course, if you
stay in the same spot, you begin to notice its
imperfections. Maybe the ground isnt quite as
level as it looked when you started or perhaps
the water has to be carried quite a distance.
Some things you plant may seem to take forever
before they come up. It is at times like this
that your mind will tell you You should have
planted elsewhere. This will probably never work.
It was stupid of you to think you could grow
anything here. The choice to garden here allows
you to water and weed and hoe, even when these
thoughts and feelings show up.
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53Choosing and Valuing a Direction What Your Life
Stands For
- I want you to close your eyes and relax for a few
minutes and put all the other stuff weve been
talking about out of your mind. Now I want you to
imagine that through some twist of fate, you have
died but you are able to attend your funeral in
spirit. You are watching and listening to the
eulogies offered by your spouse, your children,
your friends, colleagues and so on. Imagine just
being in that situation and get yourself into
that room emotionally. Ok, now I want you to
visualise what you would like these people who
were part of your life to remember you for. What
would you like your husband to say about you as a
wife? Have him say that. Really be bold here.
Let him say exactly what you would most want him
to say if you had a totally free choice about
what that would be. Now what would you like your
children to remember you for as a mother? Again,
dont hold back. If you could have them say
anything what would it be? Even if you have not
actually lived up to what you would want, let
them say it as you would most want it to be.
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