Historical Perspective TV presents

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HistoricalPerspectiveTVpresents

• Hobbes vs. Locke

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Todays show

• Thomas Hobbes (1588 - 1679)
• Everything could be explained by science
  (empiricist)
• Humans are machine, society is made up of humans
• Leviathan
• John Locke (1632 - 1704)
• Also an empiricist
• All knowledge comes from our experience (tabula
  rasa)
• 2 Treatises on Government, On Human
  Understanding, On Civil Government

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Lets Begin
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Welcome gentlemen
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Thanks for having us.
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Pleased to be here
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First off, tell us your thoughts on human nature
in a State of Nature.
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Though the state of nature did not have
government or what we call civilization, it was
really not that bad
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Ill shank you Johnny
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Come, come Thomas old chap, lets not fight
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Dont give me that rubbish!!
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You know very well that life in a state of nature
was a horrible go
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In fact it was, solitary, poor, nasty brutish,
and short
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Yeah, yeah, Ive heard it before
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I said it myself in Leviathan, Man is a wolf to
man.
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Whats with you and the wolf-man routine? Just
because you look like one
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Grrrr..
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Man is a social animal, even in the state of
nature. Initially there were no problems among
people.
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But there are always those people who want to
start trouble and forcibly take what is not
rightfully theirs.
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And of course there are those of that are
physically and mentally more ready to use force
as the answer.
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YEAH!!!
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So are you saying that some people in a state of
nature are more adept or better off than others?
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Not necessarily
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I agree.
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Actually in a state of nature, all people are
equal
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Although some people are stronger than others,
people can gang up on others and kill anyone they
want
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So even if someone is smaller or weaker, they can
be more intelligent, organized, etc.
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You watch too much WWF
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True, people are certainly equal in nature, but
for a different reason
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In a state of nature, nature grants perfect
freedom and equality to all
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And ultimately everyone wants to work together to
see everyone succeed
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But again, some people upset this balance and
then you start to see governments forming
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So we formed governments to keep people from
killing one another?
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Yes
No
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Lets start with Mr. Locke
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Although people are going to fight in a state of
nature, thats NOT the reason why we formed
governments.
Loooser
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People freely gave up some of their rights so
that they could better protect their property
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Because some people cant keep their greedy
little hands to themselves
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I told you that was MY Ipod!! I dont know what
happened to yours!!!
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Rightwhatever.
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Thats ridiculous. There is no such thing as
property as except as defined by the state.
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In a state of nature, people dont know whats
his or hers as opposed to someone elses.
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People are like, Gimme, gimme, gimme and they
dont care about others
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So government is all about giving up rights so we
can continue to breathe
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Such a pessimist. Of course people have property.
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Its defined by what they make or create. Its
their property through their labor.
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What if I make you bleed and I take your IPOD?
Does that make it mine?
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Just try it Tommy-Boy!!
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Your mine Locke!!
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GENTLEMEN!!Pleaselets talk about rights for a
minute.
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Rights?! There are no rights in a state of
nature!!!
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Except big-noses right to cry which I will be
happy to enforce
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Sticks and stones
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Anyways, that just goes to show how smart you are.
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Just as Nature gives everyone freedom and
equality, it gives everyone certain rights.
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Ill show you a right, followed by a couple of
lefts!!
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Every person is given the rights of Life, Health,
Liberty or Possessions.
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Therefore anyone who violates another persons
natural rights are also violating Natural Law.
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Theres no such thing! Just like there is no
Santa Claus!!
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No Santa!!!!???
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Jeesh! The only Natural Law that exists is killed
or be killed.
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Your whole idea of Natural Law is based on
morality, whats right and wrong.
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In reality, there is no universal morality, only
what laws or commands a ruler or God hands down
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And that can change moment to moment.
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So arguing that there is some Natural Law we all
know and listen to is absolutely ridiculous!
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Mr. Locke, do you agree with Mr. Hobbes about
this lack of a universal code or morality or law?
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No Santa!!!!???
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Ugh!
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No. I dont agree. These rights Ive mentioned
are unalienable.
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That means they cannot be separated from you at
all.
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To be human is to have the right to life,
liberty, and property.
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Youre a member of the gentry arent you?
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Maybe
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Slavedriver!!!
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Mr. Locke, is it true that you are the Secretary
for the Board of Trade and Plantations?
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And that hence you profit from the work of slaves?
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And if your theory of labor is true, wouldnt the
slaves who do all the work own all of the
property?
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Next question.
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HAH!!
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Alright, lets talk about rulers in a government.
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We know that people give up their rights to a
government or rule in return for something
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But what about rulers
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Kings are the BOMB!!!
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Kings are absolute.
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So with absolute authority comes absolute
certainty.
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Whats that supposed to mean?
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It means that a king cannot do wrong. Many times
they are ordained by God himself.
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Thats why we give him absolute power. The whole
purpose of the kings are to protect our lives.
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What about property?
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Were you listening? I said that there is no
property until the state says, Here,,, this
yours.
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So I dont own an IPod until the state says its
my property?
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Who says you even deserve an IPod, punk?
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My natural rights.
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Doh!
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So, what if the king takes my IPod? Is that
wrong?
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Of course not. And by the way, you can call
Your Highness.
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You thief!!!
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Anyways, I cant believe that you can justify
theft of property by even a king.
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What are you talking about? Whatever the state
does is right.
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You gotta be kidding me
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Like I said, kings are absolute, so what they say
and do is law.
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So what if I dont like it?
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Deal with it Meryl Streep.
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I told you not to call me that.
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So if I dont like the government, king, etc.
then I have no choice in the matter?
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Finally you are making sense.
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Wrong! Kings or other governments are there
because we put them there.
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The whole purpose of government is to serve the
state and we the people are the state.
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Does your mommy still dress you?
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Because we have rights that surpass a kings
power, that king must respect our natural rights.
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And if that king violates our natural rights, we
have the right and RESPONSIBILITY to get rid of
him.
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Are you crazy?!!!
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NO ONE has the right to challenge a king or
government.
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Anyways, kings are ultimately our servants and if
we dont like him as a ruler, we need to 86 him.
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I wonder how your slaves would feel if we told
them that
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Uh, .
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Well unfortunately, thats all the time we have
for today.Thank you gentlemen for your time.