Title: PHL105Y October 4, 2004
1PHL105YOctober 4, 2004
- For Wednesdays class, read to the end of chapter
5 of the Republic. - On Wednesday, well discuss the essay (first
draft due October 13, 2004)
2Glaucon the extremes of morality and immorality
- Is it always better to be moral?
- Imagine an extremely successful, well-regarded
immoral person
3Glaucon the extremes of morality and immorality
- Is it always better to be moral?
- Imagine an extremely successful, well-regarded
immoral person - and an impoverished, suffering, ill-regarded
moral person - Who is better off?
4What about the afterlife?
- One might be tempted to respond to the story
about the two statues (the immoral but
successful guy and the moral but unsuccessful
guy) by saying that the immoral person will have
a bad time in the afterlife, while the good guy
goes to heaven. - Given what he is trying to show, Socrates cant
make that move. Why not?
5Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue
- Fathers tell their sons to be moral, not for the
sheer joy of being moral, but for the sake of
getting advantages, especially the advantage of a
good reputation (among people, and among the
gods). Religious leaders say similar things. - If morality is so good-in-itself, why do we bribe
children (and adults, for that matter) with
stories of how moral people will be paid off with
soft couches and nice things to eat and drink in
the afterlife?
6Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue
- Why do our poets talk about morality as something
difficult, requiring great self-discipline? - Why do our poets say that immorality is often
more rewarding? - Why do we admire people who are immoral but
powerful, and look down on moral people who are
powerless or poor?
7Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue
- What impression of morality does the young person
end up with? - Morality is not good-in-itself, but good on
account of its advantages the best thing would
be to get those advantages while still profiting
from immorality - Most advantageous to seem moral, not actually to
be moral
8The challenge, summed up
- Socrates is challenged to prove that the worse
possible thing that can occur in the mind is
immorality, and that morality is the best. 366e - Socrates is asked to show that morality itself is
good and immorality itself is bad. - whether or not it is hidden from the eyes of
gods and men we are not concerned with the
appearance of morality, but morality itself
9Chapter 3 Basic Morality
- Morality can belong to communities as well as
individuals - Socrates idea lets start by examining
large-scale community morality, then return to
the individual
10The birth of community morality
- Why think back to the initial formation of a
community? - Why not, say, look at an existing community and
ask, what is morality here in Athens (or
Mississauga) right now?
11What forces drive the formation of communities?
- Individuals find that they are not
self-sufficient - We can satisfy our basic requirements better by
specializing one person becomes a farmer,
another a weaver, another a builder, another a
shoemaker
12Specialization
- people are inherently suitable for different
activities people have different natures
(370ab) - Specialized workers are likely to be more
productive and do work of better quality (370bc) - If specialization is so helpful, then we need
toolmakers, merchants, and so on soon the
community is catering to non-essential needs
13The community expands
- Before long, the community has added actors,
doctors, barbers, daycare workers, manufacturers
of cosmetics .
14The community expands
- Before long, the community has added actors,
doctors, barbers, daycare workers, manufacturers
of cosmetics . - and it needs to expand its territory to satisfy
everyones new requirements - So we add a military force.
15The introduction of the military
- Glaucon asks whether the existing citizens could
serve as the armed forces. - Socrates reminds him that they have agreed it is
impossible for one person to work properly at
more than one area of expertise. - They agree that military occupations require
expertise, and a group of professional guardians
is added.
16What are the guardians like?
- They are to be gentle to the members of the
community brave and willing to fight the enemy
17What are the guardians like?
- They are to be gentle to the members of the
community brave and willing to fight the enemy - a bit like dogs who are kind to those familiar
to them, and hostile to strangers.
18What are the guardians like?
- They are to be gentle to the members of the
community brave and willing to fight the enemy - a bit like dogs who are kind to those familiar
to them, and hostile to strangers. - or like philosophers (!)
- (why? What do you make of the argument at
376b-d))
19Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians
- How does education begin?
- we start by telling children stories which are,
by and large, untrue, although they contain
elements of truth (377a)
20Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians
- What kind of stories are the future guardians to
be told, as children?
21Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians
- What kind of stories are the future guardians to
be told, as children? - Why is censorship to be practiced?
22Censorship of stories in the ideal city
- Any spoken words or composed works will have to
conform to the principle that God is not
responsible for everything, but only for good.
(380c)
23Censorship of stories in the ideal city
- Any spoken words or composed works will have to
conform to the principle that God is not
responsible for everything, but only for good.
(380c) - The point is that a young person cant tell when
something is allegorical and when it isnt
(378de)
24Censorship of stories in the ideal city
- Stories about the gods changing shape are to be
banished - And so are stories about the gods being engaged
in deception
25A note about deception
- Look carefully at the explanation of a true
falsehood (382a) - How is a genuine lie different from a mere spoken
lie? (382c) - In what circumstances is a spoken lie acceptable?
(Keep that in mind)
26More censorship
- No scary stories about the afterlife we dont
get to talk about the vile, dank halls, which
even the gods hate, the shrieking bats etc..
(386e-387d) - No stories in which leading men weep and wail in
mourning (387d) - (Why?)
27Lying in the ideal community
- The rulers can lie for the good of the
community, when either an external or an internal
threat makes it necessary (389b) - No one else is allowed to lie
28More censorship
- No stories of heroes being overcome with desire,
or lacking self-discipline - Stories are not to portray immoral people as
happy, or moral people as unhappy - No stories about the rewards of secret
immorality, or the disadvantages of being moral
29More censorship
- There is to be little playacting a guardian can
tell a narrative, but he or she cant take on the
role of a dishonourable character - A Jim Carrey could visit our community and put on
a show, but he cant stay and live among us
(398ab)
30More censorship
- Music is censored. Plaintive, sappy stuff is
forbidden. - Music should perfectly capture the tones of
self-disciplined and courageous men in failure
and success (399c) - Note in the course of the discussion, they trim
out some of the original luxuries they had
imagined in the community (399e)
31More censorship
- We are also going to censor painting, weaving,
embroidery, pottery, topiary, architecture
everything must be elegant and harmonious - We want a cultural education that will make young
people graceful, and ready for rationality
(401e-402a)