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PHL105Y October 4, 2004

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On Wednesday, we'll discuss the essay (first draft due October 13, 2004) ... A Jim Carrey could visit our community and put on a show, but he can't stay and ... – PowerPoint PPT presentation

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Title: PHL105Y October 4, 2004


1
PHL105YOctober 4, 2004
  • For Wednesdays class, read to the end of chapter
    5 of the Republic.
  • On Wednesday, well discuss the essay (first
    draft due October 13, 2004)

2
Glaucon the extremes of morality and immorality
  • Is it always better to be moral?
  • Imagine an extremely successful, well-regarded
    immoral person

3
Glaucon the extremes of morality and immorality
  • Is it always better to be moral?
  • Imagine an extremely successful, well-regarded
    immoral person
  • and an impoverished, suffering, ill-regarded
    moral person
  • Who is better off?

4
What about the afterlife?
  • One might be tempted to respond to the story
    about the two statues (the immoral but
    successful guy and the moral but unsuccessful
    guy) by saying that the immoral person will have
    a bad time in the afterlife, while the good guy
    goes to heaven.
  • Given what he is trying to show, Socrates cant
    make that move. Why not?

5
Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue
  • Fathers tell their sons to be moral, not for the
    sheer joy of being moral, but for the sake of
    getting advantages, especially the advantage of a
    good reputation (among people, and among the
    gods). Religious leaders say similar things.
  • If morality is so good-in-itself, why do we bribe
    children (and adults, for that matter) with
    stories of how moral people will be paid off with
    soft couches and nice things to eat and drink in
    the afterlife?

6
Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue
  • Why do our poets talk about morality as something
    difficult, requiring great self-discipline?
  • Why do our poets say that immorality is often
    more rewarding?
  • Why do we admire people who are immoral but
    powerful, and look down on moral people who are
    powerless or poor?

7
Adeimantus on the extrinsic rewards of virtue
  • What impression of morality does the young person
    end up with?
  • Morality is not good-in-itself, but good on
    account of its advantages the best thing would
    be to get those advantages while still profiting
    from immorality
  • Most advantageous to seem moral, not actually to
    be moral

8
The challenge, summed up
  • Socrates is challenged to prove that the worse
    possible thing that can occur in the mind is
    immorality, and that morality is the best. 366e
  • Socrates is asked to show that morality itself is
    good and immorality itself is bad.
  • whether or not it is hidden from the eyes of
    gods and men we are not concerned with the
    appearance of morality, but morality itself

9
Chapter 3 Basic Morality
  • Morality can belong to communities as well as
    individuals
  • Socrates idea lets start by examining
    large-scale community morality, then return to
    the individual

10
The birth of community morality
  • Why think back to the initial formation of a
    community?
  • Why not, say, look at an existing community and
    ask, what is morality here in Athens (or
    Mississauga) right now?

11
What forces drive the formation of communities?
  • Individuals find that they are not
    self-sufficient
  • We can satisfy our basic requirements better by
    specializing one person becomes a farmer,
    another a weaver, another a builder, another a
    shoemaker

12
Specialization
  • people are inherently suitable for different
    activities people have different natures
    (370ab)
  • Specialized workers are likely to be more
    productive and do work of better quality (370bc)
  • If specialization is so helpful, then we need
    toolmakers, merchants, and so on soon the
    community is catering to non-essential needs

13
The community expands
  • Before long, the community has added actors,
    doctors, barbers, daycare workers, manufacturers
    of cosmetics .

14
The community expands
  • Before long, the community has added actors,
    doctors, barbers, daycare workers, manufacturers
    of cosmetics .
  • and it needs to expand its territory to satisfy
    everyones new requirements
  • So we add a military force.

15
The introduction of the military
  • Glaucon asks whether the existing citizens could
    serve as the armed forces.
  • Socrates reminds him that they have agreed it is
    impossible for one person to work properly at
    more than one area of expertise.
  • They agree that military occupations require
    expertise, and a group of professional guardians
    is added.

16
What are the guardians like?
  • They are to be gentle to the members of the
    community brave and willing to fight the enemy

17
What are the guardians like?
  • They are to be gentle to the members of the
    community brave and willing to fight the enemy
  • a bit like dogs who are kind to those familiar
    to them, and hostile to strangers.

18
What are the guardians like?
  • They are to be gentle to the members of the
    community brave and willing to fight the enemy
  • a bit like dogs who are kind to those familiar
    to them, and hostile to strangers.
  • or like philosophers (!)
  • (why? What do you make of the argument at
    376b-d))

19
Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians
  • How does education begin?
  • we start by telling children stories which are,
    by and large, untrue, although they contain
    elements of truth (377a)

20
Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians
  • What kind of stories are the future guardians to
    be told, as children?

21
Chapter 4 Primary education for the guardians
  • What kind of stories are the future guardians to
    be told, as children?
  • Why is censorship to be practiced?

22
Censorship of stories in the ideal city
  • Any spoken words or composed works will have to
    conform to the principle that God is not
    responsible for everything, but only for good.
    (380c)

23
Censorship of stories in the ideal city
  • Any spoken words or composed works will have to
    conform to the principle that God is not
    responsible for everything, but only for good.
    (380c)
  • The point is that a young person cant tell when
    something is allegorical and when it isnt
    (378de)

24
Censorship of stories in the ideal city
  • Stories about the gods changing shape are to be
    banished
  • And so are stories about the gods being engaged
    in deception

25
A note about deception
  • Look carefully at the explanation of a true
    falsehood (382a)
  • How is a genuine lie different from a mere spoken
    lie? (382c)
  • In what circumstances is a spoken lie acceptable?
    (Keep that in mind)

26
More censorship
  • No scary stories about the afterlife we dont
    get to talk about the vile, dank halls, which
    even the gods hate, the shrieking bats etc..
    (386e-387d)
  • No stories in which leading men weep and wail in
    mourning (387d)
  • (Why?)

27
Lying in the ideal community
  • The rulers can lie for the good of the
    community, when either an external or an internal
    threat makes it necessary (389b)
  • No one else is allowed to lie

28
More censorship
  • No stories of heroes being overcome with desire,
    or lacking self-discipline
  • Stories are not to portray immoral people as
    happy, or moral people as unhappy
  • No stories about the rewards of secret
    immorality, or the disadvantages of being moral

29
More censorship
  • There is to be little playacting a guardian can
    tell a narrative, but he or she cant take on the
    role of a dishonourable character
  • A Jim Carrey could visit our community and put on
    a show, but he cant stay and live among us
    (398ab)

30
More censorship
  • Music is censored. Plaintive, sappy stuff is
    forbidden.
  • Music should perfectly capture the tones of
    self-disciplined and courageous men in failure
    and success (399c)
  • Note in the course of the discussion, they trim
    out some of the original luxuries they had
    imagined in the community (399e)

31
More censorship
  • We are also going to censor painting, weaving,
    embroidery, pottery, topiary, architecture
    everything must be elegant and harmonious
  • We want a cultural education that will make young
    people graceful, and ready for rationality
    (401e-402a)
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